www.valdezlink.com/generic.htm  check this page re:  the following:
Sometimes your blood counts are 'borderline' normal - and doctors say you're OK - what about glands & chronic fatigue?

After posting my comment 11-20-03 I was banned for including a web page - AND the moderator took down the entire thread (Maybe this forum is sponsored by doctors &/or pharmacy co.)

From CoCo  medic - guest -  Chronic Fatigue - A Possible Explanation 10-26-03

on        www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=28804

I am a Paramedic that has recently been attacked by a profound case of fatigue. My symptoms have varied across the board but they have included muscle aches, decreased exercise tolerance which has progressed to a complete inability to exercise, dizziness on standing, some mild confusion, nausea, and just this general feeling that my body feels like its shaking internally. I can't go to the grocery store without getting tired from walking the aisles. Sometimes I grab a cart just for something to lean on. Usually my energy levels were the worst in the afternoon, but then I would get a burst of energy in the evenings. I get winded just from taking a shower and putting my clothes on. Needless to say, my countless visits to the doctors office has yet to yield any positive findings, and I say: if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself... So overnight I became my own physician. And I think that what I have discovered may be worth exploring to people who read these postings. I have currently believe that I have what is called "Adrenal Fatigue" which is a disorder of the adrenal glands to produce enough hormones, one of the most important of these hormones is CORTISOL. Traditional medicine commonly recognizes Addison's Disease, which is a COMPLETE lack of cortisol production. But what happens to someone if they make a little bit of cortisol, but not as much as they used to? As it stands now, most doctors don't believe that a partial depletion of cortisol will result in a diseased state. From my experience, they believe that the blood tests from the laboratory are infallible. If you are above the range you are healthy, and if not then you are sick. There is NO INBETWEEN. Personally I think that this grey area inbetween is where many people with Chronic Fatigue may find some answers. During my own personal research I began to learn about certain lab values, and what they mean. My doctor did humor my curiosity and ran a cortisol test. At 11:45 in the morning I had a reading of 4.8ug/dl of Cortisol. Most people have a morning cortisol reading between 5 and 25ug/dl, and in the afternoon it will drop to a range between 2.5 & 12.5ug/dl. Therefore to MY EYES I felt that this was a significant finding. My 4.8 reading was below the morning range. However, the general practitioners that I saw think that I don't know what I am talking about, they say that I am in the normal range because it was almost taken at noon. They also discount the possibility of "adrenal fatigue" because they "HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT". Well, I decided to get some more information and found an alternative health practitioner that is able to acquire hormone testing through saliva. Once again 4 values taken throughout the day showed that I was below average in the mornings, but was within the normal range in the evening, which coincidentally was when I felt my best. I am now going out on my own to find a physician who is familiar with and willing to treat what is known as "Adrenal Fatigue". This is not an easy task. If you read the book by James Wilson "Adrenal Fatigue" he addresses the issue of why most traditional doctors haven't officially recognized this disorder, but that it truly does exist. Furthermore there is an excellent book called "Safe Uses of Cortisol" which was written by a faculty professor of endocrinology in Virginia (William Jeffries) back in the 80's. In this book the professor extols his clinical experience about mild adrenal insufficiency, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, severe allergies, and a host of other problems that he believed were not only related to each other, but also seemed to be corrected with low doses of the natural body hormone "Cortisol". Now folks, I am NOT a doctor, I have only been exposed to this debilitating fatigue for a couple of months now, so take my information for what it is worth. But I honestly believe that it would be worthwhile for everyone who is diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue to explore the possibility that this is a hormone imbalance, i.e. "adrenal fatigue".

11-07-03

As I have mentioned in my 2 previous postings, I have hypothesized that my fatigue (as of yet its not officially chronic) is a result of "Adrenal Fatigue". I have been reading, researching, and absorbing as much information regarding this particular ailment as I can, including seeking the advice of a physician outside of my health plan that practices "anti-aging medicine". His recommendation was to perform a 24 hour urine analysis and I was very surprised when I got the test results back. They showed quite dramatically that my adrenal glands were functioning quite fine, much to my chagrin. I had thought for sure that I had it. The Urine Analysis showed that I had well within normal ranges of cortisol, smack dab in the middle of the range, and a 24 hour urine test is a good measurement of how much cortisol my body produces for the entire day, therefore it has greater legitimacy in terms of accuracy. However, much to the dismay of my pocketbook (because I paid for all of these tests myself) this doctor also tested my growth hormone levels. LOW AND BEHOLD! It turns out that I pretty much had almost none at all! Within a 24 hour period I produced about 1/16 as much as I should have. This physician stated verbatim "That is the lowest level I have ever seen". Needless to say, at the age of 31 I am supposed to be close to the peak of my physical abilities, not dangling at the very edge of survival. I am extremely grateful to this doctor for running that test, it was a real eye opener, and I plan to pursue this path to see where it leads me. This is not to say that I won't continue to pursue other possible explanations for my fatigue & tiredness, but this was a very huge finding for me. Especially since I can now go to my regular General Practitioner and prove to her that I am NOT a hypochondriac, and that she should treat me with more respect and sincerity. The Anti-Aging doctor recommends growth hormone injections, but I am holding off any treatment decisions until I see the endocrinologist on Monday. Turns out Growth Hormone is horribly expensive too. I can envision a huge fight with my HMO in the future if and when I decide to get those treatments. In regards to Adrenal Fatigue, I still think that many of you would benefit from reading the book and pursuing that possible diagnosis. I know of 2 people who I recommended the book too have been amazed. They have remarked to me "Its like the author had my life story." Even though it turns out its not likely I have the ailment myself, I am glad that I was able to help out someone else.

Reposted valdezlink.com site - 11-20-03

This is really fascinating! I usually post on the "rare disorder" section for neurocardiogenic syncope (neurally mediated hypotension). There has been a lot of evidence (particularly John Hopkins University) that NCS is related to Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia. I have symptoms of all of them. Just yesterday (before reading this) I was doing some research and came up with some information linking adrenal fatigue (with low cortisol and low growth hormone) to NCS and chronic fatigue. It completely made sense to me. I have agree with your assessment that doctors tend to think in all-or-nothing terms. Either you have the "disease" or you don't - I can't personally fathom how they can so easily totally discount the in-between!
I have all the same symptoms as you do - fatigue, dizzyness, fogginess, nausea. I bought a wrist blood pressure monitor and my BP is generally low and every now and then it nose dives and I get really sick (nausea, lightheadedness). If it goes low enough, I pass out. I've read that licorice helps to increase cortisol levels and will also raise blood pressure. I've just started it today. People with high blood pressure though you shouldn't take it, but people with CF usually have too low BP (check first if you're thinking about taking it).
I think I read, if I'm remembering correctly, that this could actually stem from the pituitary gland, rather than the adrenals, because its the pituitary that produces the growth hormone and "tells" the adrenals to produce cortisol. I also have a lot of problems with insomnia, and I believe melatonin is produces in the pituitary also, so that would all make sense.
Since growth hormone is so expensive, are there any other treatments for the low growth hormone?
Maggie   -    11-11-03
You certainly have been doing al ot of research. It's a shame that we have to become our own doctor...then pay for everything on top of it all! I think I will look into those books myself. I think I may have CF or something. I do have an Immune Deficiency. My biggest complaint right now is my fatigue and joint/muscle pain. Because of the fatigue, a year ago my dr put me through the endo route. Had a cortisol test, gh and a bunch of others. I was diagnosed with a pituitary tumor. However, my endo said all my levels were normal. To make a long story short, I went to a local university and had a neuro-surgeon tell me my pituitary looked normal and since my labs from before were normal then they didn't see the need to pursue. Since then I have been pursuing the immune problem and everthing else myself. Changed doctors also.
Good luck to you! Lots of interesting info about the adrenals.

Mamu
I am glad to see such a good response to my postings. Hey Maggie, as I have mentioned before, I strongly recommend you look into adrenal fatigue, from what you're saying, there is quite possibly a strong connection. From why I have read about adrenal fatigue & low cortisol levels, they are strongly intertwined with the human circadian (check my spelling) cycle. In other words, cortisol fluctuations could be the culprit of your insomnia as well. As for the pituitary, yes, it is the master gland, and rightfully so. It produces a lot of hormones to control a lot of other glands. One of the hormones the pituitary makes is ACTH, or ADRENOCORTICOTROPIC HORMONE. This is the hormone that the pituitary uses to talk to the adrenal glands. The pituitary uses growth hormone to talk to other tissues & organs, and I think I will save that for a different posting. For myself we have currently detected a deficiency in growth hormone, and some irregularities regarding other hormones whose names I couldn't even begin to recognize or pronounce. Needless to say, they are hormones that are made from other hormones, and i couldn't even begin to tell you what they all mean yet. I finally met with an endocrinologist yesterday, and it was such a relief to finally find someone who was sympathetic, open minded, and knowledgeable on the hormone system. We are running MORE hormone tests to get a better idea as to what is going on with me. If I have to use growth hormone, I will. I'd rather be poor and healthy, than dead & buried. From what I am learning, no, there is currently no other substitute to growth hormone. Apparently there are many pills and compounds they make that "stimulate" the pituitary to make more growth hormone, but that's it. Pure growth hormone itself is only available from a handful of US Manufacturers, and only by injection, and expensive. I have to admit, this has become quite an education. CoCo Medic 11-11-03
CoCo,

I have read your posts with interest. I have had CFIDS for 10 years. During this time I have tried to sleuth out the underlying cause. At one point I, too, suspected my cortisol level might be one of the culprits and I asked my endo. to do a test, which he did, reluctantly. He also stated "I know it is going to be normal". He was pleased to report that he was correct when the tests came back. Here are my numbers:

cortisol l6.Oug/dl

ACTH High sens 38pg/ml

Apparently the adult range is 9-52, so he deemed me within normal and I then went on to exploring other possibilities. Are you now saying that these tests are not really accurate? I guess I wouldn't be surprised, but after 10 years of research I'm not so sure there is only one cause of this devastating illness.

I also had years of kineseology with a leader in the field (he's actually located close to where you live). His feeling was that CFIDS is a virus, similar to MS, AIDS, etc. He found that the virus (when high = "flares") would tend to settle in different areas with different individuals. In my case, it was the central nervous system. His work helped some but certainly never eliminated the virus and it required many visits to get it to calm down when high. He is seen by people worldwide for many different ailments, including Cancer. His feeling was that CFIDS was "the" most difficult disease to treat.

I appreciate your tenacity and will look forward to reading any further research you post here.

Peregrine 11-12-03
Hi Coco - I have a question for you. What do you think of the "mail-order" hormone tests you can do at home and send back to the lab? I see a lot of intenet sites advertising these, just don't know if its all a scam. I have "sub-par" insurance, and I just know if I go in to my HMO and suggest a homone test they'll deny it. But I was thinking, if I did one of those inhome tests and it came back low I could at least use that as "ammunition" to get the HMO to do a test. I started taking licorice a day before yesterday, I guess I better stop that if I'm going to do one of these tests. Any thoughts? Thanks, Maggie
Maggie, I thought the exact same thing myself. I tried the Saliva Hormone Cortisol test. I stopped taking the herbal supplements I had been trying, I located a Biotech Laboratory that performs the test locally, and I spit into these little plastic capsules and sent them off to the lab. My results were ready in a week. Quite frankly, they were only a little bit on the lowside, but still within the normal range. I too thought I could use it as ammunition against my doctor, but so far it has proven itself to be quite useless. If I were to do it over again, I wouldn't spend the money on the test, but I will stop short of saying it was a waste of money, because it eventually led me down the right path. I looked around and found a doctor who was more familiar with "adrenal fatigue", made an appointment, and drove 2 hours to get to his office. This is when I got the 24 Hour Urine Test, (that was an expensive day). Fortunately for me, the test looked at not just my cortisol levels, but many other hormones, which is when we found out that I had almost no growth hormone production at all. These lab results I WAS able to use as ammunition, and fortunately for me, I found an endocrinologist who seemed very open minded & receptive. She whipped out her lab sheet and ordered so many hormone lab tests that I was worried if I would have enough blood to get home. That is where I am at the moment, tired & waiting, but hopeful. CoCo Medic  11-12-03
Peregrine, it looks as if you had the ACTH Challenge Test, which is supposed to be an excellent method of seeing if the adrenals are functioning. I am guessing that your first number is your cortisol level PRIOR to the ACTH injection: 16 and that the 2nd number is your cortisol level AFTER the injection: 38. From what I have read about cortisol levels, this is the response that you want. The books I have read say that your cortisol levels should double, and sometimes triple the original level. This shows that when stimulated with the ACTH, the adrenal glands make more cortisol. And your adrenal glands have clearly done that, by more than doubling the original level of 16 to a robust 38. Personally, I have not had this test, and I don't know if its in my future. They found that I have very low Growth Hormone Levels (Which is now leading me down the path of Growth Hormone Deficiency). I don't know if this is something you should look into, or not. My guess is that after 10 years, you are probably looking into anything and everything (God bless the internet). I wish you the best, let me know if you have any other questions. CoCo Medic  11-12-03
Mother_Margaret
Newbie

Joined: Nov 20, 2003

I've read this thread. I think you are on to something about the endocrine disruption

http://www.valdezlink.com/generic.htm
Many are health damaged by the 2-butoxyethanol chemical in many products - Let's look at the bigger picture! What else is going on? Why is it that doctors say you are OK, when you know you aren't?

I'm even concerned about today's military
http://www.valdezlink.com/chad4.htm

This thread was 'pulled' the same day I posted this comment, so likely no one saw it

I am not allowed to put my web pages on this forum, as it is paid for by sponsors.

Having our own forum for EVOS  & Gulf War Syndrome folks would be nice, wouldn't it?