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Author    Age?
Keith
Member		   posted February 18, 2004 
I just turned 35, and I remembered the only goal I had for this date. I planned on being able to bench press 300lbs by this age. Any of you remember setting goals for physical fitness? I ask this because today at this point it sounds funny to even mention it for me, I haven't lifted weights for 8 years at least. Oh I've tried to start back as determination is still one thing I don't lack, but the result is always the same as why I gave it up to begin with. I say my goal was to bench 300lbs, thats probably not alot for some of you, but I weighted 160 and could bench 250, used to run all the time. I was still able to lift weights back in 95 and I was still trying to run. So I figured if I could continue working out and gain say 20 lbs over time I would be able to bench 300. But in 95 the work outs started costing me, I was so sore I could only work out 3times, sometimes only twice a week, and if I ran once a week, then the next I mentally had to force myself at another attempt to keep trying to run, as I loved it. I gave up running at all by the end of 95, and I can't remember the last attempt I made to try lifting weights again. I started working on a trash truck at the age of 14 and have loved hard labor ever since, part of the reason I did so well in the Army and the Artillery as I loved humping rounds. I could party all night and work any task all day until 92. When I first started going to VA in 98 I didn't know about all this, I seriously thought I had done myself in at an early age is all, even asked my doc. back in 2000 when his tests all kept coming back normal, "whats the chance all the hard years of living is the problem" he said if that was the case it would show up in the tests.
Kinda long winded I know,but the point is this; did this sort of thing happen to any of you. The other guy from my unit in the Storm that is messed up was a track star out of high school into basic, in basic he could out run all the Drills, his legs were incredible. I saw him in 2001, said he had'nt run in years. hes a couple years younger than me, he should be a contender at the Bloomsday run here in town a local favorite, is this normal for so many that were so fit in their early 20's that by 35 they can hardly walk, forget about running.
Thats BS.
Keith
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 18, 2004   
Keith, is the reason you have difficulty running and working out due to the connective tissue in joints? (I also was wondering what your job was in munitions?)

Connective tissue is affected with the exposures to 2-butoxyethanol. One lady of the Exxon Valdez oil spill cleanup told me she has had multiple operations to put the joints back together - that they are 'falling apart' Joints hurt with this sub group of those exposed (at least with them there weren't 100 other possible causes of harm, only one) Again, I think the USA govt is stumped too. I don't think anyone but some chemical company somewhere knows what's going on & they are walking off with mucho bucks.

Anyway, a mini synopsis of how to find the harm of this chemical (EVOS workers doctors haven't yet - I haven't even heard of any of their doctors that have had an interest more than a couple of extra tests... & then forget it):

To reiterate, please bear with me:
Retic ratio in itself is not a diagnosis for blood anemia of the red blood cells, but it would support such. As long as the bone marrow is still producing red blood cells to compensate for the early death of RBCs (before 120 days) you may not notice too much in the RBC counts, and thus doctors don't think to check more.
This

quote:
elastase is an enzyme in the granules of leukocytes. It causes epithelial damage, vascular hyperpermeability, mucus hypersecretion etc. Increased release will contribute to the symptons in CFS
is also something mentioned as part of the blood problems to check if one might be approaching hemolytic anemia.

In the extreme, can this cause paralysis? I'm not a doctor, or any type of medical person, but I believe the answer to this is YES, based on talking with the families of those who have been afflicted by this - & knowing what 2-butoxyethanol is supposed to do (sad story) So many people are affected: those who clean, those who paint or use many automotive, hobby and home cleaning products even! ... and the military How many solvents are they exposed to in munitions, in gun cleaning? How much repetitive exposures do they get in war-time vs non wartime?

I started learning about this damage to red blood cells when I read up on 2-butoxyethanol, aka ethylene glycol monobutyl ether that was used in the cleanup chemicals of the Exxon Valdez oil spill. Not many of these get an accurate diagnosis, as doctors are stumped, and workers don't realize that they were exposed to such a chemical (Probably wouldn't help for them to know, as doctors don't study chemical exposures and the effects on the body) Maybe we need to enlist the services of toxicologists?

Anyway I found this thread of interest, because it would be an aspect of helping to get an accurate diagnosis for those, at least, who were exposed to too much solvent of this type. (It is also a pesticide & a poison)
It is the red blood cells that are damaged (& I believe the cause of the fatigue these have). Ask for the Retic ratio and ask for a lab tech to comment on the red blood cells. And realize 2-butoxyethanol causes:

  • Narcosis
  • Damage to the kidney
  • Damage to the liver
  • Present an abnormal blood picture showing: Erythropenia
  • Present an abnormal blood picture showing: Reticulocytosis
  • Present an abnormal blood picture showing: Granulocytosis
  • Present an abnormal blood picture showing: Leukocytosis
  • Likely to Cause Fragility of Erythrocytes
  • Likely to Cause Hematuria
  • Causes central nervous system effects, depression, etc
  • Damages skin, & mucous lining of sinuses and upper respiratory
  • Causes endocrine disruption (Headaches in area of pituitary gland?)
  • AND damage to connective tissues, too?
Here is more information with links to definitions

Now, I suggest that those whose chronic fatigue syndrome is from blood damage of the red blood cells - your body would have need of more oxygen. AND that coupled with taking a lot of medications could cause seizures?

I believe it's the solvents of this type that also are a cause of 'gulf war syndrome' & chronic fatigue is at the top of their list of symptoms! They may have enough counts of red blood cells but with low function?

'Mother Margaret'
Who am I?

 
genie
Member		 February 19, 2004      Click Here to See the Profile for genie  
Yep, sounds vaguely familiar Keith. In 95', July 7th to be exact, the onslaught of the debilitating muscle spasms in my lower back started. I was slated to go to the State Police Academy five days after my back went out on me. Prior to that, I was running just fine, no knee or back problems to keep me from accomplishing my goal of being a constable. A sciatic nerve had been pinched from the chronic muscle spasms in my lower back. I guess back then, I just ignored the muscle spasms as best any 23 yr. old would. I couldn't go back to work for about 2weeks because of the back problems at that time. I couldn't straighten my back without pinching that nerve. So the running stopped because of my back problems then. After another year & ½ there I left that job and could no longer work physical labor type of jobs. It was basically clerical from then on.

I'm 31 now, and I may see 41, but I know that tomorrow is not promised to anyone.

That was way too much. Maybe me editing that stuff will help me with that uneasy feeling I get when I divulge way too much about myself, after the fact. That need to know thing comes to mind. Plus the fact I was getting lost trying to read all that info about myself I posted. But I really don’t mind sharing much about myself on the board here. It's amazing how a new day brings a different perspective sometimes. 
Keith
Member		 February 19, 2004               
I was a cannoneer and I did clean the tube, but I've cleaned guns all my life and still do. If Uncle Sam has not admitted to these things causing my problems I have to focus on what they know are causing them. I had to file for undiagnosed as I am still undiagnosed, I can't even get them to do anymore tests at the moment for the things that studies like Haleys have shown to be a problem, so for me I can't chase every rabbit hole looking for Alice. I don't have the strength physical or mentally, I have a 3 year old and one at 18 months and try to just have enough energy to spend some quality time with them. Sorry. Until they can rule out chemical or Biological warfare exposures, the pills, or the vaccinations, I don't want to consider adding anymore. I have a list and it needs to be checked off.
Genie thanks for sharing, by putting some of the things like I wrote, I only hope that another Storm Trooper suffering, yet not ready to expose themselves to more GOV. BS, might relate and know they are not alone.
Keith
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 19, 2004      Click Here to See the Profile for Mother Margaret     
I understand;

however, if it is the solvents in things like gun cleaners; and you have come to the point that you have had too much exposure, then adding more is very hazardous & would accelerate more severe and maybe more problems;

just chart your own blood records; see if there is a change from normal for you; that's a safety tip regardless.

I'm so pleased you have children & enjoy them!
Sunshine
Junior Member		 February 19, 2004       

Keith and Genie,

I may be repeating myself, but here goes!

My husband entered the Army 1970 he was exposed to several very caustic things up until 1985. He didn't really show any symptoms until after he received the Vaccines in 1991. Shots in March and by September he couldn't get into the push up position. In 1995 he was out! Also in 1995
he had to quit his job etc......He is 51!

He is dying a very slow painful death, as a result of Severe Advcd.Rhumatic Disorders and dystophy of the lower extremities, as well as: cognative/lung/colon/kidney/pancreas/liver/
thyroid/cfs
and etc.etc. Do any of these look familiar.

Joyce and I discussed this some time ago that you all may want to consider. There are distinctive similarities between all of you whether you were deployed or not. Not to harp on the vaccines, because they are not the only catalyst to all that is going on here...but...

1. Thyroid - Hashimotos disease?
2. Liver - Elivated Liver Function test
are they trying to tell you
to stop Drinking (even if you
don't)?
3. Lungs - Brochiectactises?
4. Kidneys - Bladder-problems urinating?
5. Cognative-Memory short term primarily

Just a few notes. Once again Gale is posting for all of us very informative reports under the Vaccines header. Go and read some of them you may be surprised as to what you see.

Love to all of you
Cynthia
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 19, 2004      
Keith, Genie and Sunshine:

All these things you all mention (& more) are things the solvent does to you; but as I just shared with Chad of Indiana 

Chad,

Remember when you came back from the VA at Christmas time and you said, "Oh, brother, bone marrow and liver problems; two more things to add to the list!"

?

Well, that is just the point: I believe that the blood problem began from day 1 and underlies all other problems that show up from then to whenever. It is foundational. www.valdezlink.com/just.htm So why didn't they notice it before? And what have they found that says it is happening now?

This is very, very important for all affected by such solvents as ethylene glycol ethers!

Margaret
plowboy
Junior Member		 February 19, 2004      
as the garfield cartoon said you are only as old as you feel, and somedays i feel like i'm 80. i grew up on a farm in montana and in my younger days could work like a dog with no problems but now my 53 father can out work me in a heartbeat.
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 20, 2004      Click Here to See the Profile for Mother Margaret     
Yes, plowboy,

Note the comments from Slim, who says similar http://www.gulfwarvets.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000004.html
irish
Junior Member		 February 20, 2004      
I am sorry to say your stories sound all to familiar, I was a federal prison guard right out of the mil, making great money being in great physical shape. then in June of 95 BAM!!! my world went to s---. no more job no physical activity, and hello to depression and ptsd, cfs, fms, esophagus cancer (in remision), chronic headaches and migraines.
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 20, 2004      
Thank you for sharing, Irish. I thought you would see the similarities, looking from your side to theirs (as visa versa for me a year ago) I have a question on the headaches (Here are some EVOS and some gulf war vet descriptions of headaches) It seems that the occur for years on a 2-3 times a week basis ... & not a normal migraine. One lady who had had severe headaches that I describe here - says now they have stopped. So, if they are not in the brain, but in the pituitary gland area, could it be that something burns out in the feeling part? Or did some medication she took help her?

The World Health Organization has identified cancers that those overly exposed to such solvents seem to get.

quote:
paint solvents are carcinogenic, painters having a 40% higher chance of lung cancer and 20% higher of stomach, bladder, larynx, etc cancers
and these, too?

I think if that wonderful woman, Joyce Riley, (whom I spoke to for 3 minutes last month) had realized what they did 8 years ago ... given the choice of them and what she's been focusing on ... she would be hitting hard on solvent exposures instead.

Thank you all for sharing.

And it wouldn't hurt, would it, to ask for a RETIC ratio next time you do have a physical, and to call & have the nurse read what they have in numbers for blood counts before and after your military service. The changes may be slow, but they must be there for exposure to the ethylene glycol ethers (You are said to be exposed to 2-butoxyethanol and diethylene glycol monobutyl ether. There are both obvious and non-obvious sources of exposure, by the way.)


Hang in there all! The race is not over
Our kids may need our help too!

More study is needed - Or we can expect more and more harm to many more people
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 20, 2004 

Any help from Garfield? Did you know that Jim Davis started 'Garfield' because he had asthma & had do do more inside things? Maybe there is 'light at the end of the tunnel? Maybe you will find you have untapped creativity, too?

  

Some wonder whether my posts deal with attention getting for the Exxon Valdez oil spill cleanup workers. Oh, I'm sure that will happen; and rightly so; they don't even know what happened to them, or what chemical they were exposed to - & most doctors won't either, what a sad state of affairs.

But I assure you, I am drawing a lot of attention to your causes. Both for those who consider this chemical an exposure for them AND for those of you who don't. Time will tell, because if you don't already know the Retic ratio, you just might be able to get it 'thrown in' next time you need any medical work done; that's when we'll have a better idea.

When I went on a general search for cancers caused from ethylene glycol ethers - the two of my links that came up out of 35, were not ones relating to the oil spill, but two related to gulf war vets

And in case you're interested, here's the rest of the list Since this is an exposure of Gulf War Vets and Since it is one that cause all the symptoms, the govt maybe better do some checking and add it to the approved list of harm to you.
genie
Member		 February 20, 2004 
Now I see where the frustration is coming from with some of the other PGW vets & those that may have significant ties with that WAR are concerned. Sorry it took me a while to get it, but now I think I do.

Keith posted a topic for discussion, AGE, in the Gulf War Illness thread, so here is a question for you Margaret; what does "...however, if it is the solvents in things like gun cleaners..." have to do with someone’s age and Gulf War Illness? Majority of your posts consists of an angle consistent with your agenda here, which is to get attention for the Valdez Oil Spill.

I think the consensus has always been, at least since I’ve been posting here, to try and stick with the topic that is posted by the originator on a particular thread. I'm guilty of straying from the originators intent on occasion myself, but not as blatant as you have been here lately. I & I'm sure others appreciate your knowledge concerning the Valdez Oil Spill, but sometimes, actually most of the time, I do get distracted by the posts that deviate from the originator's intent, specifically the topic, as I'm sure most other PGW vets do too. So maybe if you try not to stray from the originators intent when posting any comments in the future, it probably would help with that cohesion aspect of a friendlier forum for the board.

I just thought I might shed some light on an increasingly volatile subject on the board here lately, where the angle for your posts are so transparent, and not appreciated by some because of the format it's presented in. In the future, you could always just make another topic, and specifically, you could address the issues concerning the Valdez Oil Spill, with all the contaminants involved in that mishap, & the Gulf War in the thread that was specifically designed for that purpose. Just some thoughts of mine, that’s all.
travisab1
Junior Member		 February 21, 2004 
Folks;
I've read your posts. I've got the same symptoms as most. I'm constantly exhausted, lower back pain, pain across shoulder blades, can't breathe well, trick knee. I don't do any exercise because I hate to get out of the bed. I have to plan 1 to 3 days in advance to go to the grocery store or to see the doctor. When I do I take 7 pills to get me through the ordeal of these simple tasks. My pharmacists says those pills can burn my kidneys out. That's why I stay in bed a lot so I don't have to take those pills. If I don't move around much then I can take the pain.

If the Government admitted that the GWS existed and was most probable fatal, what sort of reaction would take place from those in Iraq now? What would people here on the home front do? You see, we don't stand a chance. Your Damned if you don't and Damned if you do.

They still don't have any recognition at the VA here in FT. Meade. They were suppose to burn/freeze all these skin sores on my head/neck/back and arms off the other day when I went to the doctor. They took a couple of chunks out of my back and shoulder to test for cancer and told me that what I had on my head, neck ETC... was just a part of getting old. Last year they got rid of them in Hot Springs, SD VA. they take about 8 to 10 months to come back.

I thought I'd throw this in.

Regards,
Travis
Mother Margaret
Moderator		 February 21, 2004 
Genie, As you can see, it is sometimes hard to stay just on the topic, because as people reply they bring up other points.

Have you noted this lists 2-butoxyethanol AND diethylene glycol monobutyl ether as solvents troops in 90-91 were exposed to?

I only mention the Exxon Valdez oil spill cleanup chemical because except for ethylene oxide in Corexit that was experimental then, and not primarily used - 2-butoxyethanol was the chemical of harm. If I had not talked to a lot of workers, I wouldn't have known that they have the same symptoms as you have.

My focus today, is to educate the public that they are at risk for all of these symptoms too; my concern today is for the military today.

What can be done to help either of your groups? Not much, sad to say. No matter what the diagnosis of Central Nervous System damage, it is something that chemicals (medications) can not remedy. And to overlook the blood damage until it becomes very extreme, that is too bad, because it there progressing & underlying everything.

I suppose for both of your groups I hope that there will be no more experimenting on you, such as for Chad when they put a needle behind his ear into his head and ground around and hurt him more (no help at all)

There's not much more to say; I did speak to another in Staff Sgt James Alford's group, and I assure you, 'gulf war syndrome' is still going on. And this forum has brought up about as many sent home for 'mental' problems as have died in the war to date (550) and more than the normal amount of suicides, too.

Anyone know where the military is using Corexit 9527? Bad product (How does 38% 2-butoxyethanol sound ... with just a little ethylene oxide?)

quote:
Note this disclaimer "Disclaimer (provided with this information by the compiling agencies): This information is formulated for use by elements of the Department of Defense."
Sample MSDS

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/f?./temp/~nAnQ00:2
if this doesn't come up 
- back up
http://www.valdezlink.com/solvents_birth_defects.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/rtecs.html Put in CAS No 111-76-2 or 112-34-5 and see what matches there are

What is the CAS No for mustard gas? You can do a comparison. I'll look thru this; however, they know that there are birth defects - but caused from what? That is the question

This is FOR SURE - These solvents damage the TESTES and the reproductive system in general per endocrine disruption

Check what products contain these chemicals - http://www.valdezlink.com/products_hazard_chemicals.htm

http://www.valdezlink.com/watch_out.htm

http://www.valdezlink.com/2_butoxyethanol_in_these.htm

http://www.valdezlink.com/household112-34-5.htm